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There was a long discussion in the comments at Guys Lit Wire following my post on whether or not boys are emasculated by YA literature that does not allow them to be the hero. Here's the part that really stayed with me in that Glenn Beck/Ted Bell interview:

There are a couple of things that bother me about this discussion (between two adult men without a teenager in sight by the way). First it is that for a boy to feel heroic he must rescue a girl - and the girl also needs to be rescued. I'm sure the sociologists would have a field day over all this but I can't believe that anyone in the 21st century would believe that such antiquated notions of what it means to be a hero have any place in a worthwhile discussion. Save the world - yes! Save the animals, save the environment, save whatever needs saving in your books. But the girl MUST be saved by the boy for the boy to feel powerful? How do these gentlemen think it makes the girl feel to have to wait to be saved? Have they ever thought about that at all?

There are centuries of literature where the girl is rescued, where she waits to be rescued, where she hopes to be rescued, where she dies rather than be rescued. (I'm sure Little Willow could come up with lists for all of these :) I grew up largely on "girl is rescued by boy" literature; I think one of the reasons why Madeleine L'Engle's A Wrinkle in Time is such an iconic book for many female readers of a certain age is because we remember it as one of the first books where the young female character is heroic in a dangerous situation and saves the day. (Ironically enough, she is the reverse of Beck's assertion as Meg saves her little brother.) I do not believe that boys are more in need of heroic literature than girls; I just think that traditionally more of it has been written for boys and so perhaps as a society, we think it is more significant to them. This is graduate thesis territory though, so I really couldn't say one way or the other what the answer is. I just know that it certainly seems unfair and incorrect to assume that the teenage boys need to read about rescuing girls and just as significantly, need to not be exposed to stories in which the girl does the rescuing.

Why must this heroic business be so one-sided?

Having said all of that, I used an extreme example in my post (and I knew it was extreme at the time) of Dua Khalil who was the victim of an honor killing. She was beaten to death by a group of men (some of whom were members of her own family). Joss Whedon wrote a long eloquent post about female victims of violence in which Dua figured prominently. I thought he had a point - I still think he has a point - about why women continue to be victims of such severe acts. It's odd to me that with the deeply entrenched history of heroic literature and stories (both written and oral) that is prevalent in most all of the world's cultures, that there is still so much violence committed against women. If boys grow up learning to save the girl from these stories, then why don't they always do it? Why is it okay instead to harm some women? Is that how a hero acts - ever? It's a big subject and I'm just asking small questions, but I am asking questions. And because of that, I'm getting a bit of heat on my choice of Dua Khalil as a talking point.

I know she died in a Muslim country but honestly, I don't think that matters. I don't think the US (or any western country) is inherently safer than Muslim countries in this larger issues of violence against women. Do we forget Sarah and Amina Said who were killed by their father in Texas earlier this year? Or what about the fact that one in five teenage girls in England admitted to being beaten by her boyfriend? Is Dua Khalil really an isolated extreme example? I don't think so. She is a symbol perhaps, of how awful violence against young women can be in the world today. But is she an example beyond the pale for American girls to consider?

No. Dua Khalil is a dead girl who could not save herself from the forces aligned against her. And what I wonder, is if she knew that saving herself was even an option; if she had a single example in her life of when the girl wins. That's why I think this discussion of boys and girls and heroic literature has some significance. It's not just about learning how to be a man, it's also about believing that you have a chance or more importantly, that you have a right, to at least try and fight back on your own.

[Post pic: "The Rescue of Guinevere" by William Hatherell.]

comments

I was going to suggest that FredTownWard was Beck's publicist but then I realized that he's been spewing ultra-conservative, illogical propaganda all over Omnivoracious.

So not worth your time or energy.

Well it's nice to know it's nothing personal!

I'm still frustrated that in getting caught in my reference to Dua Khalil the larger point is being missed - that Beck felt boys somehow need to rescue more than girls do. (Or at least read about being the rescuer.) That's where I get stuck - why is it more important to the guy to be the hero than it is to the girl to be the heroine?

And how does having a heroine in the story equal bad things for boys?

sigh............

Y'know, I find this kind of thing very odd. I don't remember identifying with male characters when I was a young boy. Even if the characters were my own age. I certainly didn't reject female characters out of hand, either.

I may have been lucky in that I wound up reading a lot of different things fairly early on and I don't remember being aware or taking note of the "maleness" or "femaleness" of characters. Chris Claremont's X-Men, albeit on the comic front and not prose front, that I took to when I was very young (around 7 or 8) and he did have quite a few very strong female characters (Storm, Kitty Pryde, etc...). Actually, Uncanny X-Men #168 featured a Kitty Pryde-centric story and it's one of my favourites. I never cared that she was a girl. And I certainly didn't feel emasculated as a result of that story, either.

Personally, I think kids like good characters and good stories. If the characters are believable and feel "right," they'll work for most readers. I hope my own work says that at the very least.

Wow, I'm following all of this with such dismay! Really these are some antiquated notions that are worrying -- that some still carry these ideas and accept them as fact means that it's being carried to yet another generation. Unacceptable.

I could make those lists, but one would be depressing (when she dies waiting for a rescuer that never comes) while another (she who saves herself) would be more empowering.

Have you read Like the Red Panda yet?

Von, I was (and still am) a huge comic book reader - from the classics illustrated to Batman and x-men. I love Batman and Superman and Wolverine and everyone else but I was always frustrated that we got Wonder Woman and Batgirl (who were still not all that tough in the 1970s- that has changed in recent years however) and Storm. Kitty Pryde was/is a great character but she was no tough hero in the 70s either. I dunno, maybe it's like how African American kids felt about only having Luke Cage and...well mostly Luge Cage (oh and Misty) to look up to. You get frustrated after awhile that there are so few options of your gender or color kicking butt.

Ah anyway - it's better now. I just don't think we should be pining for the good old days as Beck clearly was, when those days were only good for a few.

Haven't read "Like a Red Panda" yet LW - will look it up right now!

I'm certainly not arguing that X-Men comics were the be all and end all. Far from it. I just meant that Kitty Pryde was supposed to be about 14 when she was first introduced and I had no problems reading (and rooting) for her character as a young male reader.

More diversity, particularly in mainstream (read: super hero) comics is critical and I don't think it's happened yet. Gender diversity, racial diversity, sexual orientation diversity, and the like all need to be more fully developed by the publishers. I'm really not sure there's much of a will to do it, though. And that's extremely frustrating.

I remember how jazzed up I was when Alpha Flight first appeared - as a young Canadian at the time, that was a big deal. Marvel, since Byrne left the title in 1985, has consistently screwed it up. And I would think that's a simple concept to explore: how are Canadian super heroes different than American?

When you spin that out onto racial/gender/etc... lines, it's shocking how often these companies get it wrong. 'Course, it would help if they hired more diverse creators and then let them tell interesting stories. That would go a long way to changing things, I think.

Alpha Flight! I loved Alpha Flight! I always wondered why there wasn't more done on that title (or others like it) as well. With Canada and the US right next door to each other it seemed a natural place to explore. (For that matter, where are the Mexican superheroes?)

The argument always seems to be that it is mostly white boys who buy comics and so the pubs are merely selling to their audience but I think that's a pretty lazy approach. Everyone loves Superman, Batman and WW because of who they are and they've been around forever...race doesn't play into that. Expanding beyond the core character with more races/genders etc would be so awesome. It's always baby steps with comics though.

And did you read the New Avengers Annual (just came out recently). It's not looking so good for Kitty Pryde... (I'm very tempted to dump the title because of this issue and what they did to her.)

No, I didn't read the New Avengers Annual. I have to admit that I gave up on regular monthlies some time ago. Part of that is I prefer the graphic novel reading experience and part of is that I feel that the big publishers (Marvel and DC) have abandoned the "done in one" periodical approach that made comics work quite well. At least in my not so humble opinion (I'm not a fan of long running plot lines, title-wide company cross-overs, and the like).

I think I would cringe to see how Kitty is handled now. But this is coming from someone who has been shocked to see what DC has done with Mary Marvel.

What's amazing about the Direct Market is that most titles sell at a level that would have seen them canceled 20 years ago. I would think that the powers that be would actually take more chances and try reaching out to a difference audience as a result of that. But instead the stories seem to have become more insular, more self-absorbed. And that's a shame, I think. While I don't believe we'll ever see periodical comics sell at the level they did in the 40s and 50s, the form should be able to sell better.

See, I think it goes further than the "white boy" stereotype. There was a time where the quote was simply "girls don't read comics" (ignoring the fact that girls did, in fact, read comics quite regularly at the turn of the last century). And, of course, manga has attacked that stereotype, too. But I think now the stereotype is closer to "white males 25 to 35 are our readers" and that's it. Events like Free Comic Book Day have helped challenged that, but I think the output of the big two is still too focused on this market to the exclusion of others. And that's a shame. Comics should be more.

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