Whoa, there--the only thing I really disagree with is that an adult will read something like Part-Time Indian "for nostalgia"; that's something I thought we were all tired of, people saying that we read YA because of nostalgia (and all the condescension that goes with that word). Adults and teens will read the same book differently, yes, but an adult can get the same level of value and growth opportunity from a YA book that a teen can.

I also think that what an author meant is not the be-all and end-all, but don't want to derail your important point.

Well, in the case of "Part Time Indian" the main character is writing about changing schools and fitting into a new high school (which in this case is off reservation). To me, the discussion of fitting into a school setting is incredibly significant to teens but adults...well, we aren't fitting into high school at the age of 30. That's what I mean by nostalgia. You might remember how hard it was to fit in while reading the book but you're not living that moment when you're reading the book.

It depends on the book - which is why I used this specific book for this specific example.

As to what an author means while analyzing their books, I think when you get into the detail of counting the number of pages a person's skin color is mentioned and why it is mentioned that number of times then I think the author should be included. Otherwise you are second guessing someone's motive without hearing them speak to those motives. That's what drives me nuts.

Thank YOU for #4!

To your last point, anyone who doesn't think that YA literature is NECESSARY has not seen posts by Jay Asher, Laurie Anderson, or Ellen Hopkins about feedback that they've received from actual teens, kids who have, in some cases, had their lives saved by the books in question. 'Nuff said.

Thank you for #3. Nonfiction and fiction intersect in some ways, but they are distinct for reasons ... and the presentation alone generally is incomparable.

I have also heard from a number of younger readers who felt rescued, in some ways, by words I've had the privilege of publishing.

YA literature does matter. We all have proof.

What I find annoying to no end is that as both Jen & Beth state, there are plenty of authors who have received proof to the value of their work from actual teens and yet that isn't enough. If in "their" experience there is no value to the YA category then it simply is unnecessary.

If it works for some teens, shouldn't that be enough? (Because really - anyone can go into the general fiction section and buy a book; it's not like teens are banned from there!)

I agree that a separate YA category is great for teens, but I also believe in cross-filing. That is, some of the best books I've read this year have been "YA" books but it is a very long time since I was a YA. Yet if I just stuck to the "regular" fiction section browsing I would have missed these books. Okay, I wouldn't have, but only because I participate in the blogging community and found out about them. But before blogging, I would not have known it was worthwhile to spend time browsing YA. Can't we have more than one copy and put them in both places? (I disagree that the appeal is nostalgia - certainly many adult "literary fiction" books deal with issues relevant to childhood on up.)

Oh yeah - I hear you on that! Powells cross shelves all over the place, not only YA and adult but throughout adult categories. It's awesome! At libraries it's mostly a space issues although I do wish there was more of "if you like this then you'll like that" sort of catalog info that crosses YA and Adult. (Like what amazon does but on the library catalog.)

Thank goodness for blogs, right?!

Excellent post! So true and needs a wider audience. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Thank you so much for your post. It's so stimulating and thought-provoking! I agree with all of your points, especially number 5.

This is any interesting post. I'm actually laughing pretty hard at points 4 and 5. I've just started dabbling in YA fiction and, while it's not prominent in my reading selections, I can't imagine it not existing as a genre. I wonder who says it's not necessary or whatever as it seems I'm the only book blogger not reading it in an abundance. I think YA books are very important to its target audience as they need stories they can relate to.

Also, I hear you on over analyzing books, in general. Though, analyzing the number of references to skin color in a book is new to me.

I think it's interesting that nobody is commenting on #2. I've thought about starting a list of book that I read that have culturally diverse characters so that I can make sure that when I booktalk I'm including these books in (along with making sure I booktalk books with male characters, nonfiction, action books, books from different genres, etc). Right now I'm reading The Comet's Curse by Dom Testa and I really like the way people of color are included -- it's seamless and appropriate. I haven't yet read Liar but look forward to doing so (although, unfortunately it's recommended for high school and I'm a middle school librarian).

Browngirl and Paige - my comment at #2 was prompted by the absurd conversation going on SLJ in the Mock Newbury blog over the the book "When You Reach Me". Here's the link:

http://www.schoollibraryjournal.com/blog/560000656/post/60051806.html

They are discussing how many times character ethnicity is mentioned, how many times it should be mentioned and what an author means when they mention it. It would be funny if they weren't playing with such a serious issues and trivializing it to such an extreme.

Wow, GREAT post, Colleen! So many great points.

What Robin said. Most adults don't seem to remember that young adults have specific developmental needs. Putting books that meet those needs in a separate section makes sense. I do wish there were more overlap, though - Ender's Game is an excellent example of a book that suits a YA audience but was not intended as a YA book. I think a lot of books that could be YA don't end up on the YA shelves, like Innocence, and there's the everpresent conversation about pre-YA-distinction books which, if published now, would be considered YA. It riles me up whenever anyone dismisses YA out of hand.

Love this post! I think I agree with all your points, though I'm with some of the commenters who don't really read YA for nostalgia -- but it's not for survival, either, so your point is good.
I think part of what I got out of Part-Time Indian was getting to be in someone else's skin, getting to understand how things looked for someone in his situation.

I bristled for a moment at the notion that the Heavy Medal discussion was "trivializing", until I realized that that was exactly why I dropped out of it. But I think hidden in the nonsense there are some interesting questions--I think my own question to one of the detractors, about "how many times does the author have to say the character is black before she counts as black" does tap into something that people think about and don't often talk about.

I agree with Sondy--even if surviving in a new high school isn't an "adult" issue, one of the reasons adults get a lot from YA is that the themes can be universal, can speak specifically to the issues we're going through as adults using a backdrop that couldn't be more familiar.

Hey Wendy - I think what got me on the Heavy Medal conversation was that it appears as if John (and others) were saying that a white character can just be described as white and that is enough but a black character requires further clarification of ethnicity to be a true POC. Why the double standard? And who gets to decide enough is enough if not the author and the readers? And especially, is a Caucasian reader a fair judge of this at all?

I'm pushing back on it just because there are so few books with Kids of Color at all (especially in the YA level) that I hate to see white authors potentially scared off by this sort of "cutting up" discussion. If you were thinking about including a KOC in an ensemble book after reading that post, would you? I know some folks who are already having second thoughts.

And I sincerely hope my "nostalgia" comment did not hit anyone the wrong way. I was trying to make the point that these books can be lifesavers to teens whereas adults might not need them so very desperately. (As for me, I just read a good book period, regardless of what age it's aimed at! ha!)

Thanks to all of you for visiting and commenting. I really appreciate it!

Lots of stuff to disagree with here, but I'll start with just one point: you talk about adults as though they're all stuck at 30. What most matters to a thirtysomething is equally not what matters to a fifty-year-old. There are books I didn't understand or appreciate at 30 which I now love, and vice versa.

My problem with many YA books is not that they're written for teens, but that they're for a very homogenised, mostly Americanised version of teenhood.

Lee, I promise I do not think of adults as "all stuck at 30". I threw that age out there for the sake of example. If I included all ages of adulthood then the paragraph would, obviously, have gone forever.

Thirty was just an example here, absolutely, positively, nothing more. I could have written forty. I could have written fifty and I could have written sixty. My point however remains unchanged regardless of the age of the adult versus the teen.

Colleen, your post made me laugh and made me think.

I loved what you said about comparing (and failing to compare) Lips Touch and Claudette Colvin. I mean, honestly. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for those jury discussions. How could you possibly put those two titles against each other? In my view, it's a bit hard to treat the winning title as a winner when it cannot easily be compared to its competitors. Great point.

Also, I'm kind of sick of people (in my case, mostly parents of the students I teach) seeing graphic novels as training wheel texts for "real reading." I think that anyone who regards GNs in this way hasn't actually read a good one. It's hard to make many parents look at GNs as complex, rich texts.

Yes to Fic/NF discussions and I wonder if the serious topic (i.e. the NF one) doesn't get more weight when it comes down to it as in "This book about love is equally well written but can we really award it over a book on Darwin or one on the Civil Rights Movement?"

I could be wildly off base there (and really no one but the judges know for sure) but I have suspicions and I just don't see why they continue to lump these books together.

"yet we would rather discuss the tokenism of KOCs that are actually included in a book then tackle the LARGE ISSUE OF ALL THE BOOKS THAT HAVE NONE. Talk about can't see the forest because of the trees. Please."

We think so much alike are you my melanin-deprived twin? Will this earn me a boxed ear?

I just read the SLJ discussion. Good grief.

I haven't read all the comments here yet. Here's to not having to eat crow myself afterwards. :-)

"However, it helps a lot of kids to have those books together - it's just easier for them to find what they are looking for. Let it be, people. Just freaking Let It Be."

AMEN!

And yes to the comments about Graphic Novels. Adults really need to start reading this literature before they comment.

Colleen (and susan), I'm hoping that the comments from me and the others who appreciated the way the character was written, and that the book included a variety of kinds of people, will encourage writers who read that discussion. (Mostly my nightmare-picture is of Rebecca Stead reading it and shaking her head and saying "I AM NEVER GOING TO WRITE ANYTHING EVER AGAIN".)

Susan - HA HA HA HA HA! Yes, we were separated at birth!

Wendy - Oh man, what a nightmare! No Ms. Stead - do not recoil for kidlit because of this!!

Oooooo, I love this and #2 in particular. Thank you. No chill effect please. No need to make things worse when we're doing such a crummy job making things better...

Hi Colleen,

I think I didn't explain my point clearly: what I mean is that I do often ask myself if we need a specific YA genre, any more than we need distinct books for twenty-year-olds and books for forty-year-olds and books for retirees.

Checking out the rest of your blog, I completely agree with this post, esp. the point regarding 14 year olds being disinterested in the topics of 30 year olds. I used to teach high school English and spent three years forcing freshmen to read MARLEY AND ME because that is what my cohort chose (All over 30). A freshman in high school (particularly, a boy) would rather doodle "I hate Ms. Peters" over and over than dissect a young marriage and an old dog.