I guess we'll have to disagree on some of this, because I do believe the truly good books get attention, one way or another, with or without the placement at stores etc.

The books that fall in the middle, so aren't in that top 5 %, are the ones that are more hit or miss. Harshly, they cannot all be hits.

I'd guess the big difference between now and years ago is that yes, there is less of a midlist; yes, library funds are falling so they are buying less of those books which impacts. But, along with that, the "book launch as event" is a new factor, not something old that now only highlights "star" books. It's something new that only highlights "star" books. Roger Sutton or someone else who has more real knowledge of book promotion & how, if at all, it's changed for kid/ya lit would be a better source.

I think social networking gives people more opportunities, not less, to be involved in what happens to their books. It also gives a longer possible chance for books, because before it was live or die by the review journals and now there is at least the chance for reviews outside those journals that may have an impact (i.e., blogs).

I agree with Liz, and I think expectations is a big piece of this too. Almost no beginning authors have a good handle on what sales level (for their book, based on the publisher outlay and expectations) actually is a success. There's so little data that gets out about actual sales figures, that it can be very hard to know what's good for a book in any given category, in any given year. (Just like making the NYT list can be wildly different in sales terms, depending on factors like time of year.) (And, of course, there are also books that may be critical and/or award successes, that don't ever have the great sales #s but are still prestigious for the house/author and thus counted as successes.) I think Jenn's great post on midlist being seen as negative, and unfairly so, is relevant: http://literaticat.blogspot.com/2010/09/frontlist-backlist-midlist.html

It's also really hard to separate the success of a book that got a HUGE push from the publishing house like Henrietta Lacks from that push. They did LOTS of stuff for it.

But, yes, absolutely--most authors do have to take a lot more of an active role these days. And definitely no one should assume their house is going to handle everything. The difficulty is in figuring out where the author's efforts are best directed, and the point at which moving on to the next project is really the best thing (success or no).

Here's the thing with Grisham, as an example. If 50K is spent promoting his books and it makes 100k, it's a win. It's not as if that 50K was going to be spent elsewhere; it was part of the deal for Grisham. Using him as an example is almost like using Meyer or Rowling as the example of what YA/kidlit authors can expect from book sales or movie treatments. It's the unusual case. Yes, it's frustrating but the business of celebrity books isn't going away as long as they deliver profits.

A better case is to look at how other similar authors are (or are not) promoted. This gets into, better bigger house? Or smaller house with less titles? Etc., etc., all which do go to business decisions that others have blogged about.

For some, social networking is the answer -- Maggie Stiefvater being an example of how it's a good thing because it doesn't mean that you have to live in Brooklyn to make it in the YA world, if you use other means to promote yourself. Also, I'm pretty sure that in the beginning she was working (freelance artist) in addition to writing. Social networking isn't necesssary: Tobin Anderson doesn't do it, neither does Megan Whalen Turner. It is one answer, though.

What else can an author do? Right now, the emails that bug me that I've been getting are from the publicists, not the authors or the publishers. Some of them are great & I've worked with them (waves hi!) Others I ignore because the are so aggressive towards the blogger (do this, review on that date, as if they are hiring me for something). Either way, I think this business is springing up because now it is something authors can use. THAT is a topic I'd love to see at the next kidlit con -- publicists for authors: the good, the bad, the ugly.

I understand the expectation game and the realization that you need to temper it with reality - expect you might very well get dumped if your book doesn't meet the expectations of the publisher and those expectations seem rather high to me now as well. (I don't see a lot of building over time in D.M. Cornish's for example.)

I also don't think that emails are the right thing to do. We've all been victim of the hard sell from authors who don't know us but beg us to read their books. I think you have to start a lot sooner building relationships, etc. You have to be thinking about it all long before the book comes out.

Liz, I might have bungled the Grisham example but my point was that it wasn't well written. So the pub uses funds to push a book that wasn't good (by all fair accounts - I love a lot of Grisham but not this), they make money off the book because they marketed it so well and now they use that money to do what....buy & publicize more big name books that aren't written well?

It's the junk fooding of American literature. And we all know what too many potato chips will do to you.

I think Grisham is actually a distraction to the bottom line, practical question (but because it's about another area that fascinates, why spend money promoting a sure thing, because I think "Grisham" is what sold it, not the marketing, I can go off topic, but why when there is a better topic?):

In the current publishing world, and the immediate future, what is and is not realistic for an author to expect and to do?

And what are and are not realistic expectations from a publisher?

You mention Amanda Palmer. Is she that different than John Green? Maureen Johnson? One of the things that I loved hearing Maggie Stiefvater say about her online persona is that it's only 10 percent of who she is. Amanda Palmer, Neil Gaiman, the other gurus of online -- they know how to make that 10 percent look like 100 percent. It's a talent, it's a talent not everyone has, and where does that leave those who don't want any of their life online? Especially those who have day jobs that don't allow that type of online life?

Grisham was just the vomit-inducing example from my bookstore stop yesterday! Mostly it bugged me to see him displayed so prominently because yes, he's going to sell without using up that promo space.

Amanda Palmer is interesting to me not just because of her online presence but what she does in the field (the ninja gigs for fans) and also how she got out of her record deal and went indy and sells largely on her own. That's what is revolutionary there. She looked at the bottom line, saw how the record company was not selling her effectively and chose to do it on her own where the bigger cut came to her. This mirrors the predicament of those who've been dropped by the big box stores a bit. She actually had a post up on how she will never meet Lady Gaga's numbers because of this but makes a good living doing it her way & controls it all.

I need to link to that - for a post tomorrow, I think. (Off to dentist with boy child now....)

Sign from god that my last post was eaten.

Anyway, long post short: I think music & books are two very different art forms & business models.

For most authors, self-publishing is not an avenue that will work.

And I thought that before Frey showed that authors don't know much about business.

And now that opens a whole other discussion area, but alas, I'm fighting a bug and prefer not to throw up on my laptop.

Writers who survive and thrive are not necessarily those who position and promote their first book successfully (though that of course doesn't hurt). They are those who continue to write and continue to improve, and who therefore build a career over time. Every single well-marketed author mentioned in this discussion -- Gaiman, Maggie Stiefvater, M.T. Anderson, Megan Whalen Turner, and yes, John Grisham -- has this in common: they kept going. And most of them did not have wildly successful first books. They had books that were "promising" and were noticed by a few.

This is not the advice that a first-time published author wants to hear, and it's completely natural that a newbie pins everything on her firstborn child.

But if you manage to focus on the long view,you also support that first born, regardless of what happens to it at first. That first book can and often is rediscovered and noticed later, even if it was not so noticed at first, if the author continues working.

Thanks for commenting, Nancy!

Two things - Liz, my comparison to Palmer wasn't meant to suggest that writers should look to self-publishing. I agree that this is not the same thing for books as music. I am intrigued just by how she has thought out of the box to promote her music on every single level.

Nancy - as to first time writers having to hang in there, I completely agree. Except most of the names mentioned here didn't start during the big box store era (that's certainly true for Gaiman & Grisham). When you consider Jenny Davidson (who I posted about earlier this week) and didn't meet the sales expectations for the pub on her first YA book, then got the second one refused by B&N and Borders, well that has career-long ramifications.

You can't very well keep plugging away if the big bookstores refuse to even carry your books. And honestly, I have to wonder if your publisher really puts much into selling your book at that point.

So there's a question - what does having your book dumped by the big stores do to your career?

"You can't very well keep plugging away if the big bookstores refuse to even carry your books. And honestly, I have to wonder if your publisher really puts much into selling your book at that point."

Those are two totally different things, Colleen. First of all, of course you can keep plugging away. You can't retire, however, or rest easy, but you certainly don't have to give up because of the refusal. Don't get me wrong - it sucks and can make things harder (and maybe even kill a single book if you have no other plans). But I will say as a READER that I've never once picked up a book and said "oh, I'm not interested because this author's sales haven't been good." The true consumer is not the big box store. The author and publisher, though, then need to figure out how to reach that end buyer.

As for what a publisher does after getting a rejection like that, I imagine it's case specific. Sometimes, ya, I would think they "give up" a little. But then again, if there's not much of a promotion budget anyway, what does "give up" look like? Also, many books can sell well outside the box stores, and many publishers work creatively to make that so.

I also don't think the Grisham example is apropos to anything. Hey, put your book or my book in the same prominent display area and it will sell some, but it won't approach Grisham level until either our names or our books are as well known. But publishers and bookstores are trying to make money in a tough business, and if I publish John Grisham, I do everything I can to get more books from him and keep that relationship working. I wouldn't expect a publisher to treat me like Grisham. That'd be bad business. In fact, I don't expect to be treated like anyone else in specific. Each book/author is unique.

Frankly, I don't think we have a choice but to accept that some things are out of our control. However, we do have a choice about how we try to control more. That's what Amanda Palmer has done in music (and Ani DiFranco before her) and what J.A. Konrath and many others have been doing in publishing. Having a platform is one part of that. Creating material and persevering are others. And obviously, simply hoping for the best isn't enough (or isn't enough if you want to complain afterwards!).

Colleen, to veer a totally different direction -- and wow, can we just have a session at Kidlitcon called "This is the part dedicated to Colleen & Liz having undisturbed time to discuss stuff" -- why do the big bookstores matter? What does that tell us (if anything) for current/future publishing models? Library sales, obviously, could care less about big box. If the future of books is ebooks, and all this book blogger talk is happening online, will/does big box matter? Actually, I'm a bit impressed that whether or not big box sales happens still matter.

Nancy -- thanks for the reminder that it's an overall career, not one book.

This topic has been discussed a lot on the blue boards. Some people try interesting new things and get themselves (and their books) noticed. Others wear themselves out with brilliant promo ideas that develop no legs after all, and then they wish they had put that time into writing the next book instead.

The fact is that nobody knows a sure-fire way to promote a book--if they did, we'd all be using it. Different methods seem to work for different authors, and luck plays a bigger role than we may like to admit. Most authors I know rely on a combination of: what they have the means (time and money and other resources) to do; and what doesn't make them feel icky.

I also think the idea of discussing the pros and cons of publicists for authors would be interesting.

We for sure need to talk about this at KidLit Con if only because I think having a bunch of people in a room throwing out ideas would be beneficial to everyone! ha!

I promise, I only threw out Grisham because the book is promoted so much and so BAD. I really really really do not think anyone seriously thinks they are gong to reach Grisham-like fame overnight. It's just a really bad book that has gotten promoted as if it was great and that bugs me. Honestly, that's all I mean by bringing up his name.

I do have to counter this notion of, well you keep plugging away anyway, regardless of sales. That is just not an easy thing for someone to do. Basically, you are supposed to keep creating even though your creation garners little to no appreciation. I'm sure there are people that can do that but for me, it's something to think about. I've done that for ten years.

It's not easy. Period.

Liz - to your point about the big box stores mattering, honestly I don't know and I'd love to know from somebody how much they do matter. All I have is the anecdotal evidence gathered from authors who were not carried by them and how their sales have [apparently] suffered because of it. Is there a way to find out? (This might very well be my next blog post question.)

What I want to know is how does your career get affected long term (and we'll talk just about YA novelists as that is the point of the ongoing cover contest, etc.) if your first book does not sell well, you get dropped by the big stores, etc. Do you continue to get book deals? I'm seeing a suggestion here that you just keep writing regardless but really, at some point you have to justify that time you spend at the computer. If you aren't getting money or critical recognition or even published then should you spend that time away from your kid or your dirty laundry or your day job? (Of course of course of course you can always create for the sheer act of creating but still....)

Liz, I want to ask more about library sales. Those are based largely on the big standard critical reviews, correct? I realize they don't care about big box status at all but for a debut author (like Cornish or Davidson or Wilce) what drives those purchases? Just primarily the reviews? I'd be interested to see the numbers on library orders for those three authors (which I realize I can't see but it would be interesting).

Colleen, there are a number of places libraries buy from (Brodart, Baker & Taylor, BWI, Follett, Ingram, etc). Some are on automatic purchasing plans, so the power is with those entities. Traditionally, purchases are driven by professional review journals. Some libraries require a minimum number of reviews; some a minimum number of good reviews. Stars, 5p/5q, best of lists/award lists, are usually the same as saying "library must own." With the rise of giving readers popular books (such as those ARG I'm blanking on the term, but those books *not* usualy professionally reviewed, like Disney type tie ins?), many libraries will also purchase those type of popular books if the patrons ask for it. I'm not sure where to find the numbers for that but I can look & see. It's significant enough that the big publishers have library & school marketing divisions just for those markets, and it's more significant for children/teen markets than adults (from what I've been told). Worldcat.org would give you an idea. Hmm..hold on..

Not an easy way to see number of copies on Worldcat, just number of libraries. And since Worldcat isn't all libraries, it's only so helpful. Also, sigh, I'm finding sometimes them combining entries for editions, other times not, so right now it's too much work and thought to figure it out.

oh, and for school/library markets, the other big thing is state lists, because most schools/libraries buy multiple copies of what is on the list.

Thanks Liz - although this all just makes it seem more complicated! Ha!

Maybe we need a panel for librarians to discuss how books are chosen. I'm not advocating authors calling every library to carry their book but Jackie had a point awhile back about authors coming into libraries for events and that's something I think many authors don't know enough about or how to initiate. Sounds like a win/win.

But Colleen - who said it was "supposed" to be or "had" to be easy? Saying it's not easy doesn't mean it can't be done. Also, can you find a time when art was an easy way to make a living? Again, this doesn't mean we should settle for it being hard, but it's ALWAYS been hard. It's easier to write (hey, we're in control: we put the words on a page) then it is to sell (we have to find a buyer (publisher) then lots of buyers (readers) and it's all out of our hands). Again I say... so what? That's just a fact, kinda like if you're gonna be an elementary school teacher, you're going to deal with kids.

This could be a good topic for author or illustrator/bloggers, but KidLitCon has a huge range of folks who might not find author promotional/career issues a great topic. Me? I can talk about it for a lonnnng time. :-)

Greg - my thought for the con was the synergy of reviewers, librarians and writers (all of whom blog or they wouldn't be at KitLit Con in first place) discussing how to have the greatest impact for books they love. I'd like to see a discussion of something more than "go on a blog tour" or "be like Maureen Johnson". Lots of writers don't know what to do and lots of bloggers would like to help them but don't know how to do so in anything other than the traditional ways. So it might be nice to show how social media works as a tool for everyone. (Plus lots of bloggers want bigger numbers or are aspiring writers or would like to review for the bigger publications - so any way to enhance their profiles is a good thing).

That's my thought for the con. Does that make sense?

And really - I SO DO WANT IT TO BE EASY! ha!

One thing that needs to be mentioned here is that EVEN if you get your books in the big chain stores, *something* still has to happen to drive customers to pick them up!

My last few books were carried in B&N, but the sell through on them was horrible, which meant huge returns. The books were there, but they were sitting side by side on the shelf with other great books and most consumers don't read trade publications with starred reviews. So they got shipped back.

The good news is, that THOSE books were even given a chance. My first five books published by an imprint of one of the Big Five (or is it six?) were not picked up by the chains. Only one of those earned out, and that was because--miracle of miracles--it got tapped for a prestigious state list.

I changed publishers. I sold for a smaller advance, but the in-house enthusiasm for the project built and it got a pretty good roll out, plus a couple of starred reviews. B&N placed a big initial order. But no sell through. So pretty much B&N will not be carrying any more of my MG books. However, I have been assured by both my agent and my editor, this is not the end of my career. That NOT being carried in the chains does not guarantee an early literary death. I guess time will tell.

But here's the cincher--and why I loved Gwenda and Nancy Werlin's advice about throwing yourself into the next book and making it even better: I recently sold a new project in the six figures. It's a huge departure for me, and bigger than my other books, and even with all those B&N returns, the publisher came to the table with a significant offer. (And yes some of you will probably figure out who I am and that's fine, I just didn't want it to be google-able.) Will B&N buy it? The publisher clearly thinks so.

And I'm sharing all this with you to show that my career has nose-dived at least twice, if not more, but I have still been able to find new opportunities.

In fact, in one of those long, deep talks with myself, I realized that for me, it was all about being able to write. I want to be successful enough that I can get the next contract. And if my career tanks so bad I have to write under a different name? So be it. I'll be WRITING, and that for me is key.

So yes, it is frustrating, and yes, no one knows nuthin', and yes, we all need to try new things and think outside the box to get our books noticed. But we can also rise from the ashes and try again, as many times as it takes.

Thanks for all the excellent comments guys - and for keeping this conversation going. It's amazing.